DISQUS

Nick · 2 months ago

you should send this in to the paper and get it out to a wider audience.

KC · 2 months ago

I fully agree. With all the Australian cyclists who come here no one has an excuse not to be a part of this.

My one suggestion:

Riding 2 abreast is preferred but not always possible when passing other groups. At very least everyone keep inside the white line. Even if it means losing your position in your bunch, drift back and keep inside the your lane.

And yes, I'm one of the guys who was in your North Rd video last week. Shocking to see how bad we are!

James Foran · 2 months ago

A really simple one which not many people do, is, look for cars before overtaking. If there is a car coming, do not overtake.

There are several ways a rider can look back. Either under the arm, or twist your head. If you are not comfortable doing this, practice before trying out on the road.

And, as daggy as they are, perhaps a rear view mirror is not such a bad idea for some cyclists who are not comfortable in twisting and looking backward while riding...

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

Cycling Tip #478

When riding with someone else at your side and turning around to see what's going on behind you, put your hand on your mate's back and then turn around. This will help you keep in a straight line and help judge your space.

I'm not sure the rear view mirror will make it into the top 5, but I agree that there's some cyclists out there that need them!

Justin · 2 months ago

My understanding is that you can go more than two abreast if you're in the process of overtaking someone. So if there are two guys ahead, you can lawfully overtake them, making it three abreast. Obviously this needs to be undertaken quickly and safely.

Tim M · 2 months ago

W,
I am very glad we got you out of telco.

You are a shining star in the vacuum of cyclist safety representation and balanced and reasonable thought. I really think that an organisation would benefit from your calm, pragmatic manner. Whether that's in BV, CA, the AGF, or your own thing, rest assured it is balanced and considered thought that is needed.

Despite my anger and falling off the deep end in last week's slanging match, I 100% support everything you say here.

You are right; cyclists have a much higher standard set for us, we need to deal with that fact and move forward - Beakering like Beaker from the muppets will not help.

I am sure that any help you need, some of us would be willing to help in a meaningful manner.

My top 4 (the next 6 relate to bunch rides and I don't want to list them, these are more aimed at getting us into a good light in front of motorists):
No running red lights
NO RUNNING PEDESTRIAN LIGHTS
Hand signals, especially to let cars know what's up (I do this a lot, and many motorists wave a thankyou - this shows you how powerful small gestures can be)
Loosen up on the aggro and bravado
Bunch rides: try and stay 2 abreast and give clear hand signals -- Racer is so dangerous after the NRR, guys passing into Lane 2 without looking...
I also think calling out your fellow riders for breaking the rules would be useful. Given the level of aggro in society though, it may be a little confronting for some.

W, may I suggest some sort of Cycliquette Tees and Stickers? I am happy to put some money in, and can leverage my not inconsiderable contacts for merch. I am sure other entities would be interested.

Tim M

Justin · 2 months ago

I know we've all seen this, but a special mention anyway... Tim M mentioned easing up on the agro. While I was driving yesterday I observed a rider abusing a driver for a VERY minor indiscretion. The cyclist's blow up was WAY out of proportion to the actual "offence".

It is STAGGERING how much of a positive difference a smile, wave, and shrug of the shoulders can make in these situations. If the motorist has really been unsafe, swearing, gestures, and general bad behaviour are not going to make him/her pull over and apologise.

It's easier to brush it off than to carry it around all day. I know some incidents are genuinely life threatening and maybe call for a heightened response. But they're far less common than the little ones that too many of us (including me) blow up about.

Blowing up at drivers - not cool

Ding!Ding! · 2 months ago

. . . But loads of fun.

Mal · 2 months ago

Cool - riding in bunches smaller that 20
Cool - heckling the riders who do stupid things and let them know it's unacceptable.

Uncool - drafting trucks
Uncool - sprint finishes at the end of training rides

James Foran · 2 months ago

How about breaking the north road rides up into grades.

A grade go first, those who don't race at all, go last.

brycerider · 2 months ago

Yes that sounds really practical doesnt it

Anonymous · 2 months ago

Actually it does!

kylieonwheels · 2 months ago

Wow I didn't realise you guys didn't already do that. That's the norm up here in Sydney.

Amy · 2 months ago

The problem with that is the well known tip to get faster - Ride with those faster than you. So everyone wants to get out there and train with the faster guys.
To police something like that you would need someone to sit at the start of the NRR every morning and Handicap it!

DC · 2 months ago

CT,
I think you're Cycliquette Tips idea is great. I guess its not so much about reminding riders to stick to the road rules, although this of course helps, but Cycliquette seems to me to be about stuff that isn't in the rule books. When a motorists slows down behind me before passing (whether its due to oncoming traffic, double white lines or similar), I always offer a wave of acknowledgement for their patience. I think this can go a long way, which is often indicated by a wave of thanks in return from the motorist. I suppose its a bit about being aware of ones surroundings and and acknowledging the presence of others.
Cheers,
DC

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

I'm glad you get it DC. Lots of the stuff we do that gives us this bad image is often because people just don't know what is acceptable.

Same goes with drivers. Most of them aren't psychopathic and out to kill us. They simply just don't understand.

Agreed with your second comment about waving to drivers. Engaging them and giving them a bit of courtesy goes a long way.

TC (Mr. Fyxomatosis) taught me to wave at the truck drivers going in the other direction on the back country roads. 9 times out of 10 they'd wave back. Then when they're on their way out from their route they'd move over and give us lots of room when passing. And it didn't take any effort at all by anyone.

We gotta lose our elitist attitude when we hop on that bike and put on those faceless sunglasses.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

Yeah, I agree with losing the elitist attitude. A wave can make an aggressive driver a little happier on the road (and take that edge off.) Also to get off topic a little, I see a lot of people riding at night with no lights. We are hard enough to spot and drivers often claim they don’t see us. My friend was hit today in daylight. Bike destroyed but he is ok.

Simo · 2 months ago

I had to add to this...

I have only been actively riding on Melbourne roads for the last eight weeks or so but was aware of the agro and my personal 'goal' was to do my part to build a positive vibe and my way has been signaling 'thank you' any and as often as possible. It is AMAZING how often this gets a good response from the driver. I like to think (hope) this means the driver may go home and say 'hey love, there was a good bike rider out there today@!!' and slowly, drip by drip we can break down the barriers...

As Timbo noted we are held to a higher standard of account so accept it and let’s live by it and build bridges.

My vote is that cyclists signaling and acknowledging any good, any courtesy by drivers is a must for the top 5. I genuinely believe it can do so much good and it is, after all, nothing more than a simple common courtesy this world could do with a lot more often.

JC · 2 months ago

Yes,

Engaging with motorists on a friendly level is a good idea - waving to acknowledge patience etc. On the flip side it is a good idea to resist the temptation to wave your fist at motorists who do the wrong thing. Most of the time the only result of that will be a more dangerous environment for your mate up the road.

Dave · 2 months ago

When the slanging match last week occured, I discussed it with my colleagues at work to get their take on the issue. Turns out everyone has a heated opinion on the topic (even those who are generally quite placid). They didn't even realise riding two abreast was legal!!!! Really hits home what we are up against.

For what it's worth, I think we really need to engage Bicycle Victoria/Australia to see what education/knowledge campaigns they have planned that we can aid with. Alternatively, we inform them what we are doing to help aid them in their work. A united front is needed.

I am happy to help....just tell me what to do!

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

Engaging our cycling bodies will definitely be in the cards at some point. I'm guessing that BV and CA have some politics to deal with at their level and at this early stage I think it's best left to you guys to run with at a grassroots level.

Grace Australia · 2 months ago

I belong in the other 12% of your readers - and you're right - I do look up to the 88% to gauge what's cool and what's not... this a fabulous approach!

I'm also a motorist and I am very mindful of cyclists - often keeping an eye out for my husband! I think it's important to keep in mind that not ALL motorists are mindless or out to get cyclists. I remember one incident when I was turning into a busy street during peak hour and a motorist sped up to block me off (instead of letting me in), which left my car partially blocking a cycling lane. At that precise moment the train warning lights went off and I was stuck. Though there were no cyclists there at the time, I knew it would only be a matter of time before one would approach (waiting for the train to cross takes several minutes). I wanted to reverse but there was a car behind me - and the aforementioned driver made no attempt to let me in. A few minutes passed and a cyclist approached - he was none-too-impressed that I was blocking the lane. I rolled down my window in anticipation - ready to say sorry and that the driver had blocked me off... but I didn't get a chance - I was greeted with a loud thump on the back of my car. I wasn't angry at the cyclist - I was actually sad... sad that I had been judged without having been heard... I was definitely the meat in the sandwich!

Richo · 2 months ago

Similar thing happened to me while driving. Here's a rule: Don't touch anyones car - ever!

JD · 2 months ago

Great suggestion. Guaranteed way to get almost any vehicle owner (Bike/Car/Motorcycle/Pram) off side, starting physically assaulting their pride and joy.

James Foran · 2 months ago

uncool - Riding down the middle of two lanes of cars, stationary or moving.

Cool - Stopping behind the cars at traffic lights.

If there is no specific bike lane, ride like you are a car.

Uncool - Getting agro at cars who pull into the bike lane. Stop and wait for the car, and make sure you indicate to other cyclists that you are stopping.

Uncool - hitting cars when riding past...

uncool - Leaning on cars at traffic lights..

Hughesy · 2 months ago

I would agree with you on all points, although about a month ago I was riding in the bike lane at ~30km/h and the car alongside me started drifting into my lane and I hit the passenger window (totally out of character for me) and scared the crap out of the driver (not my intention). She wound down the window and yelled that she wanted to talk to me, we pulled over as I felt I should explain why I pulled a dick move and hit her window. When we stopped though she just wanted to yell at me and not listen to why I did what I did, she had no clue she was already half in the bike lane as I was alongside her. Anyway I told her that we are both adults and if she does not want to have an adult conversation than I would be going, which I did. I'm glad that I rode off and did not go down to her level and just start yelling back at her, but in reality I wish I had not hit the window in the first place.

On a separate issue, in Perth our Narrows ride (sounds similar to Melbourne's NRR) has been getting very large lately (as it does around this time each year) which tends to mean more inexperienced riders who will do anything to stay on for as long as possible, people who will ride in an unusual or inappropriate manner try to drop those riders and motorists (lots of trucks and utes) not giving the group respect (maybe misjudging how hard it is too overtake 50+ riders doing 45-50 in a 60 zone before roundabouts and traffic islands). So I also agree witht the other posters comment about groups of 20, although everyone wants to be in the group;).

Snowy · 2 months ago

James, I can see where you are coming from with the overtaking of cars at the lights. However, I think there are two possible situations here. When in a bunch, wait behind the cars. But when you are on your own, I feel that it is irritating for drivers to be slowed down by a cyclist in an intersection where they really will actually be slowed down if they catch a second red light because of someone like me. I always go to the front row of cars at the intersection, then sprint out of the lights and get out of the way of drivers as quickly as I can. I'm usually over the intersection before cars are. If there is a truck behind me though, I pull out of the way as if do a hook turn in the intersection to let them through. Its hard work to give a cyclist some space when you are in a truck.

James Foran · 2 months ago

I do the same thing Snowy. Thinking out loud here, but moving through traffic to get in front would probably be more annoying to those you pass, rather than slowing down someone who is already behind.

Snowy · 2 months ago

I ride home via Hoddle street every night at about 5pm. Im not keen on spending 2 and a half hours sitting in traffic. There have to be some advantages to riding a bike. But you are right, there are many times where i simply dont want to piss drivers off and do my best to get out of their way while still getting to go through myself. I think discretion is best applied here, and "being courteous to your fellow road users" is actually best left to the interpretation of the rider for once.

Jake · 2 months ago

I do the same as you snowy in peak urinhour because as you say you can generally sprint to the next car queue.
I don't bother though when traffic is light- not worth the risk

DDD · 2 months ago

As with so many things on the road, it is a matter of judgement as to whether you "funnel up the left" or stay in the line of cars. For me, I assess the benefit versus risk/hassle caused - if I'm just passing one or two cars that are immediately going to pass me then what is the point. If I'm going to pass 20-30 cars and significantly improve my ride flow/time then why not - I can get fro mPort melb to South Road in the same time as a car if I take safe advantage of being on my bike - if I stay behind it is 10-15min slower on the bike.

On other matters,
- UNCOOL - headphones and road riding do not mix - uncool and unsafe.
- UNCOOL - packs that pass and swing in on other riders - we must look aftr our own even if they are riding slower than you that day.
- UNCOOL - complaining but taking no action - if you don't like a rule or Council/Govt decision dont just whing about it to your cycling mates over coffee - ring or write to people that can make a change. e.g. If you ant a clearway on Beach Rd on weekend mornings then let the Coucncil and Councillor know. It is more often than not a numbers game when such decisions are made.

On engagement with BV and CA, also look out for Amy Gillett Foundation's new ad - "A Metre Matters" coming out soon I beleive.

Billy Buster · 2 months ago

A general rule of thumb I use is, if I do slide up the left side of stationary traffic then I will stop behind the third car from the lights. I find a car sitting any farther back isn't so likely to be annoyed.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

No more iPods or headphones on while riding it is bloody dangerous because you can't hear other riders coming or cars and therefore you become unpredictable.

I agree with acknowledging drivers for doing the right thing it goes along way to them doing the right thing when they come up on other cyclists.

Marchello · 2 months ago

I really dont like see riders with head phones on while on busy roads - especially beach road. Its dangerous at the best of times. I can understand it while grinding up the hills at Donna Buang etc but not in the city.

Justin · 2 months ago

I asked a good mate (Dave McMaster) who teaches me a lot about cycling whether he liked to listen to music and ipods while riding. His response:

"No, I like to listen to the cars"

Common sense, and very good form.

johnj · 2 months ago

couldn't agree more, your ears are as close as you will get to eyes in the back of your head, it has saved me a few times

kylieonwheels · 2 months ago

I would be very wary of trying to dictate things like ipod use. You wouldn't like to be told no music in the car. And are you then saying that the hearing impaired shouldn't be riding? It's a personal thing, and I think it would be better to educate people how to ride safely in all conditions, rather than just limit the conditions.

Manel · 2 months ago

In Europe, if you use earphones while riding (cycle or motorbike), driving or manning any vehicle on the road you will be fined by the cops. Not even a hands free with the earpiece. (I'm spanish) Said that, I do ride with my ipod on, low volume though...

Travis · 2 months ago

No Kylie that is not what we are saying at all. What we are saying is that if you are listening to music while riding you cant hear cars or other bikes and your awareness of your surrounds drop.

It is also very is easy to dictate hear in Melbourne as it is against the law two where headphones while operating a vehicle on victorian roads Ipod or mobile phone.

Bone Head · 2 months ago

I agree with Travis,

I also recommend not riding with your eyes closed. Sharp vision is an essential element of safe riding (this statement is not intended to offend any blind readers of this blog).

Timo · 2 months ago

As my good friend told me,

"If you act like a cock, expect to share the road with a bunch of dicks."

T-Dog · 2 months ago

Great Idea CT- its an issue that will be long debated amongst cyclists and drivers for a very long time- and the least we can do is make a start on developing our own 'informal code of conduct' to show we mean business when it comes to cycling etiquette.

I guess one of the problems is getting this message out to those who run the reds, ride 5 abreast, and show no respect for other users of the road. After riding the hell ride for the first time in months on saturday it was amazing that despite the bad publicity in the media over the previous week, everyone was still riding 5 abreast, swelling into two lanes and abusing aggressive 'beeping' drivers. Do we need to take it upon ourselves to call it quits when a bunch size swells too much?

Perhaps its worth while handing out flyers/putting up posters in relation to this issue at racer so cyclists who may not frequent this blog can tune in and understand the dangers of riding ridiculously. Should we hold a forum at a local St Kilda pub one night to discuss this further?

Hollywood · 2 months ago

I've had the nickname T-Dog since 1992. Can you please change it.

Have Bike will travel · 2 months ago

T-Dog, I have not ridden with you for soo long. Hope you still know who I am.

JD · 2 months ago

Remember that "A metre matters" - give other cyclists room when overtaking, especially in bunch rides.

I was in the NRR when it overtook my wife (a relatively new cyclist) last week. She was surprised and wobbly, and almost fell off under the the wheels of the cyclists passing her as a consequence.

Needless to say I copped some flak when she got home.

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

the exact same thing has happened to me. It was the last ride my Mrs CT has done!

brycerider · 2 months ago

+1 to that. Just out with a mate doing a base cruise and was expecting the 5.45 NRR to come steaming past - which it did as expected.

The loud scream/yell from the two imbeciles on the front as they went past us was extremely stupid.

It didnt bother us too much but if you arent expecting it there was plenty of capacity for a senseless crash.

LanternRouge · 2 months ago

W, once you have the Top 5, how about them publishing them on a ticker tape scrolling on the home page....making sure they receive 'air time' because 'out of sight is out of mind'!

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

Fantastic idea!

Tim M · 2 months ago

Check out MaxBlogPress's StripeAds download:
http://www.maxblogpress.com/plugins/msa/
With some JS to scroll.

mark · 2 months ago

my hates

running red lights
riding on footpaths (not dual use paths)
at red lights hopping up on the footpath and crossing as a ped (usually against the red man) and then continuing riding on the road

SF · 2 months ago

Is anyone against getting off the bike, crossing as a pedestrian on a green, then getting back on the bike?

If not, does it bother people to do the same only on the bike?

Just wondering, it doen't bother me as a motorist, or a cyclist, but it might bother others.

Marchello · 2 months ago

I also have had numerous discussions with non cycling mates over this and the main things that were mentioned:

1. red lights - common theme. Car drivers dont understand the problem if a light changes on a large group (ref #4)
2. groups bunching up at the lights when they go red - North rd ride is a classic example of this, using the lights to 'gain' position.
3. riders over taking and not looking back at cars
4. large groups - this is a problem on beach rd, again the nth road rides - large group travelling fast and overtaking small group means we all (me included) ride in the other lanes & annoy cars. this is also an issue when going around parked cars - bring on the clearway on beach rd!!

5. one of my hates is riders riding 2 abreast but on each side of the lane - it forces overtaking riders to go into other lanes.

I also nod/wave at cars if they slow down or wait before turning - and I usually get a smile back.

CT - I think you could get far more membership the Bike Vic!!

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

Ha! Not my intent to replace or compete with BV or any other organization. I just wanna ride my bike and live to tell about it!

Anonymous · 2 months ago

I have been out on the Tuesday night ride from S Kilda, and going through Elwood shops the whole bunch just took up the entire road and traffic had to pull over to the left and right. If I was in the car and that happened it would be terribly daunting. We are calcified as a vehicle on the road so we need to obey the road laws. I have also forgotten this at a red light and found out quickly this will lose you $260 if the police see you

Greg · 2 months ago

Great idea!

Cool - letting another cyclist know you are about to pass them

Uncool - passing on the left

Conor · 2 months ago

Yeah passing on the left on the road is not cool!

Last week on station st chelsea, I heard a few people coming from behind, I looked back and moved slowly to my left as they approached (they were only going 4-5km/h) faster than I was, and one of the riders decided to split me and the gutter, then they regrouped (3 abreast, with only three of them!) and continued on!

Conor

Anonymous · 2 months ago

if there is enough room to overtake (undertake) you on the left maybe you are riding too far into a lane

LSDsnr · 2 months ago

I'm sure we can all do our bit. I must say that I was once one of the worse offenders back about 8yrs ago when the HR was at it's worst. But I feel I have reformed with age.

But I drive around melb in a vehicle with a bike brand labelled all over it (sales rep). I've often put the window down and given a cycles a spray about running a red along beach road. I mention that their bad behavour causes the whole cycling community trouble.

As mentioned in the other posts, just the simple ones;
If you're riding in a bunch ride like NRR or HR keep it in at least one lane!

Yell at fellow riders that run the reds very late when the bunch is splitting. If you're not strong enough to chase back on you shouldn't be in those bunchs anyway!

Sorry I'll get off my high horse now........

David · 2 months ago

A few of the Pros who come back to Melbourne during the summers have a LOT to answer for. Not all of them, but everyone knows who I'm talking about. If their pro teams saw the way they rode the Hell Ride they'd be fired in a heartbeat. And these are the guys everyone looks up to.

Have Bike will travel · 2 months ago

uncool - riding full steam on Beach Road at 10:00am on Sunday and abused other cyclists because they were in your way " because you own the road!"

uncool - passing other cyclists and giving them no room and cut them off. My wife now refused to ride on Beach Road on Tuesday and Thursday morning because the NRR pushed her in the gutter.

Cool - show support and understanding toward other cyclists and well as drivers.
Cool - ride in smaller group ( sharing means you can take over the roads)
Cool - obey traffic laws.

Andy, WA · 2 months ago

I think CT has mention this a number of time; start at the grassroots.

Most (ALL?) of us commenting here are active members of one or more cycling groups. We're out there as often as we can be and form part of these groups. This is where we need to start. We need encourage those around us that we ride with to "play nice" on the roads. This is especially important for the older more experienced riders out there to show new-comers to the sport what is expected.

We have to lead by example; just like any good parent, teacher, mentor, etc... would do.

As many others have wisely stated already the key is to be aware of your surroundings and acknowledge that other road-users have the same rights as you. Some consideration and the odd wave-of-thanks goes along way to making riding on the roads a safe place...

SF · 2 months ago

I do find that (possibly only in WA) cyclists seem to forget the same road rules they employ when driving. I unabashedly consider myself among the 0.5% of WA motorists who stick to the rules, don't speed, and consider others before making lane changes etc.
That said, while I'm in the middle of a group ride, I find myself running reds, avoiding the cycle lane all together, and generally doing anything not to get dropped.
I suppose my first suggestion is only ride in groups that obey the rules;
Try to stick to the groups which have a 'main guy' who shouts at anyone who doesn't.

My second suggestion would be 'don't lane split'. If you have a cycle lane all to yourself then fine, but if not, when you get to the lights and you're behind another car, stay behind that car, don't saunter past him. If you can do that, then maybe the'll start doing the same for you.

b · 2 months ago

Obviously:
Obey the traffic laws, and not just when it suits you.

cool - helmet
uncool - helmet clipped to bag or hanging off handlebars (saw a bloke corrected by the cops for this on Elizabeth st at lunch time the other day).

cool - ride on the road, no more than 2 abreast etc
uncool - ride on the footpath (unless signed dual use)

cool - signal, use lanes correctly
uncool - dart across a right turn from left lane etc.

cool - have lights
uncool - stealth riders

Paul · 2 months ago

Besides the obvious obey the road laws, the other main problems while on "training rides" are communication and courtesy. Riders at the front of the bunch should let the rest of the bunch know what is ahead i.e. car up, riders up, glass, etc. Riders at the back should let the group know if it is clear to overtake another bunch, or if a car or bunch is about to over take their group. We need to thank cars that give us room and wait for us to pass a parked car or another bunch and also be courteous to other riders by giving them room to pass or while passing. Don't cut slower riders off while overtaking!

Andy, WA · 2 months ago

Doh! Meant to add my previous comment as a "new" one. not a reply...
Think I need more coffee! 8-|

Michael · 2 months ago

Uncool - riding 2 abreast on a narrow single lane road when there are only 2-3 riders in the group

Uncool - riding in a group >15. If you're out there for training, ride in smaller groups where you can regulate your intensity levels better.

Uncool - treating a beach road ride or NRR as a race. There are plenty of races you can take part in, and if you're just a recreational rider out for a few kicks on a weekend stop being a tight ass and fork out for a proper membership.

Uncool - Hawthorn supporters

James · 2 months ago

Just correcting the typo above, it should've read...

Cool - Hawthorn supporters!

Lachy · 2 months ago

Here's some great cycliquette:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMQk8Uncl9k

That's how you build a friendly relationship! :P

Eddie · 2 months ago

I will raise you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLzGj10fg2g

NB · 2 months ago

Check out the Megabike ride in Adelaide, saturday mornings. It is split into 4-5 groups with strict speed limits (according to ability) to ensure they all stay together and no-one feels under pressure to do stupid things in order to stay with the bunch. This also keeps the size of each group down to 30 max.

Maybe some of the Melbourne bunches could implement something similar, but this needs to be established as a culture, initially with ride 'leaders' who are well known and respected.

I lived in Melbourne for a few years and eventually stopped doing some of the bigger bunch rides because they were SO badly behaved and dangerous (this was around 2005, I hope things have improved).

Anonymous · 2 months ago

im not sure if they exist, but it would be worthwhile contacting motoring groups/forums so that they can create a set of similar basic rules/guidelines for motorists when sharing the road with cyclists amongst their followers as well as air their concerns about cyclists behaviors.

This would be a chance to allow motoring groups to see that the cycling community wants to peacefully share the road with motorists and improve road safety and could be an effective way of educating drivers about cyclists rights on the road (eg many motorists still believe it is illegal to ride two abreast) as well as allowing the cycling community to hear suggestions on how cyclists can minimise the tension caused by cyclists behavior on the road and make our own suggestions to motorists.

I think this would go along way to creating more mutual respect on the road and ultimately make the road a better place to be for all road users

cool- letting patient motorist who are waiting to pass know when it is safe to do so, it shows you are making an effort to minimise the inconvenience to the motorists and goes a long way.

Chris Little · 2 months ago

Just adding to this, why not ask motoring groups (NRMA, RACV, etc) to distribute a copy of the 'top 5' with their own literature? Partly to catch their members who cycle, but mainly to show cyclists' initiative in making things better. Call it something like 'Cyclists' commitments to sharing the road safely.'

Tim M · 2 months ago

Exackery what I was going to say. GREAT idea. And NRMA/VicRoads with Rego notices - lots of VicRoads and TAC crew ride, so someone there would have a contact.

Someone's local member should be able to take this up with Tim Pallas too, who despite being an at-times recidivous backward roads-only monster, sometimes appears to have a cyclist hat on.

A top 5 tips from cyclingtips.com.au ( ;) ) "approved by RACV/VicRoads/ETC" would shock a few aggro motorists and show them we are serious.

T Dog · 2 months ago

Why isn't our professional cycling bodies sending out 'watch out for cyclists' info already (with the rego sticker info)? Such a great way to get a message across- from both sides- and share the road!! I agree Tim and Chris!

Dan · 2 months ago

A few suggestions:

- Dont spit, blow your nose or dispose of any other bodily fluids unless your at the back of a group and YOU ARE SURE it will not spray onto anyone or any cars!

- Wave cars around if they are hesitating and you can see that it is safe for them to overtake. As others have said, communication and a few hand gestures (friendly hand gestures) go a long way.

- Commuting is not racing! If someone has overtaking you dont pull up next to them or in front of them at the lights and then race off, your only going to be overtaken again.

Juz · 2 months ago

I have got to agree with Dan's first point- it is so not cool to finish your effort on the front and unload the contents of your nose onto those behind you. Let alone the fact that you pass whatever germs you have been fighting off for the previous week. Why is this even vaguely tolerated- it is so disrespectful to your fellow cyclists. I think it reflects that so many feel that riding is all about them- their training, their road, their choices.

No doubt that cars can be the authors of outrageous behaviour towards cyclists, but I suspect that the only difference between the two groups is that cars have much greater likelihood of maiming or killing us. (Though perhaps this is the key point) The two times I have been hit by a car were both due to drivers not seeing me (due to distraction or adverse conditions)- riding predictably, using lights and visible clothing (not too hard) can at least reduce this risk.

Play the odds. Be visible, be predictable, don't piss anyone off when you don't have to. Much of the stuff that has been talked about will directly benefit other riders at least as much as promoting our rep amongst motorists. Better bunch riding means less pileups.

Justin · 2 months ago

I had a discussion on point 2 with a mate who said NOT to wave them around you. If you do and something bad happens it may increases the culpability of the rider. Just a thought?

S · 2 months ago

Woah. Correct this straight away. Everyone is ultimately responsible for themselves on the road. Especially in an overtaking situation. "I overtook because he indicated I could" is not an appropriate defence.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

But it might actually be the reason that an accident happened. I used to give cars the polite "it's clear to proceed" hand signals, until another car came in the opposite direction and nearly caused an accident. I no longer do this, because, you are right - everybody should be responsible for their own actions.

Safe cycling/driving is not about who does or doesn't have an appropriate defense. It's about not getting hurt - for everyone.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

I think you should ride safely and sensibly but I would not expect that to translate into better behaviour from the average motorist.

Their only concern is that bicycles delay their arrival at the next traffic snarl and that removal of bikes will mysteriously solve traffic congestion.

As for the suggestions on no lane splitting or filtering - may as well walk. And lane splitting is a lot safer than gutter crawling.

Juz · 2 months ago

"may as well walk"- gotta say that this sort of logic is what motorcyclists use to support their using cycling lanes. Why should they have to wait!

Also, I don't think the average motorist really cares that much about cyclists, and far from wanting to hurt us, they just want to get to where they are going in one piece. Their inattention is what is going to kill us. I can only think of a few instances where genuine malice is the cause of cyclist injuries- far more due to alcohol, drugs and being distracted by phones, kids, looking at other cyclists, dogs, etc. etc. No amount of PR work is going to improve that- being visible and being predictable are the only things that reduce these incidents.

Beagle · 2 months ago

Brilliant post CT. It's great to see someone actually put this in words...and even better to see so many people agreeing with it.

Mick · 2 months ago

This is all great stuff ... perhaps a lot of Cycliquette needs to start on the NRR. It amazes me how many of the A grade riders do the wrong thing like deciding to ride three abreast. And I'm talking top level A grade. As well as the some of the Old timer A graders doing the same ting and wearing headsets. They have so much influence and if things are going to change ... they ned to tow the line first as everyone who isn't A grade copies them.

Marchello · 2 months ago

I agree Mick

There is a BIG difference between the behavior of riders on the 5:45 ride compared to the 6:00 ride on Tues/Thurs NNR.

On the 5:45 rides form 2 abreast quickly and they get yelled at if they dont and generally riders only over take to get up to the front when safe to do so - going ALL the way to the front instead of sitting beside riders hoping that someone will let them in.

Jake · 2 months ago

Things that have kept me alive, both cycling and motorcycling.
1- Be smooth and predictable. Nice flowing lines- it's elegant!!
2- Show everything slower than you (pedestrians, slower cyclists) the same respect you'd like faster vehicles to show you.
3- Always try and make eye contact
4- Wave a thanks and wave on near misses- the other party will learn more if they're not scared or angry

kylieonwheels · 2 months ago

It's interesting to note how much we all disagree even between ourselves, and that is good because it actually highlights a point I wanted to make. As cyclists, we aren't completely catered for in the road rules. It's easy to say that if we want to ride on the roads, we should follow the rules for cars, but the reality is that it's not that simple. The rules are designed for cars, and not for vulnerable road users like ourselves. But the aim of this post (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't to overturn the government's treatment of cycling, but rather to break down the tensions between all road users, by way of education.

I have this theory, that there is no such thing as an angry cyclist. What you see when you think you see one, is actually just a scared cyclist. Think about the times you've lost your nut at a motorist. Was it because other people's flaunting of the rules infuriates you, or was it because you thought you were about to become a radiator furnishing? Then what about the times you've tried to explain that fear to a motorist, maybe a friend of yours? Did you get the line "that's your own fault for putting yourself in that dangerous position"?

From everything written here by your readers, I most strongly agree with the point about having the balls to tell your mates when something is dangerous or uncool. It takes a big set, and I am the first to admit that I've just kept my mouth shut when I've seen mates do stuff I consider stupid. It's time we started communicating between ourselves too.

I agree that this should be a collaborative effort, but I don't know about getting involved with BV, CNSW, CA etc etc. Politics isn't the answer, we need to bring it back to the people. A youtube ad campaign? Low budget, ordinary losers like us just doing 30s snips of a cyclist perspective of common situations? Mass email once a week. Make them cute or funny, appealing yet actually somewhat enlightening? I don't know the answer, but I'm keen to help contribute.

Richo · 2 months ago

Facebook group ... for each person that joins hopefully their 150 friends will see it.

Tim M · 2 months ago

This is one of the best posts to appear on here, comment is:
1) You're mostly spot on about being scared, re: lone riders
2) Something needs to be done about the NRR and its ilk. I have never ridden it from the start, but I live on Beach Rd in Sandy and get picked up by it most mornings on my commute, and the behaviour and lack of commonsense on this ride apropos showing a good example to cars as well as riding safely is frightening

So, there are two issues there

1) Etiquette -- for our own safety
2) Education campaign for motorists to see how vulnerable we are
Something that cuts right through
A home video "your story" type campaign with people like Michael Forbes, and people who've come off second best but come up ok (i.e. me hit by a semi trailer at 40km/h) and promoted in media etc as well as a cohesive campaign via VicRoads, RACV, TAC i.e. GETTING INTO PEOPLE'S "inboxes" is what is needed.

Wade: perhaps you could create a dropbox where people could email with their skills and how they can help, whether they have contacts, web programming (for a special page), design skills (brochures and logotyping), merch contacts etc etc.

Tim

Andy, WA · 2 months ago

Brilliant post Kylie!
The scared bit I can totally relate to...
On my commute this morning I had a driver cut across in front of me. I did have to brake and move out into the lane a bit, but otherwise there was enough room. However, I threw my hands up at the driver in a gesture of "WTF you moron?". Not a proud moment on my part, but it did spook me that the driver misjudged my speed (I was travelling at about 40km/h) and cut me off.

Also, your point about "Politics isn't the answer" is spot on! There is only so much legislation and the authorities can do. Most drivers will just ignore it anyway. We have to target drivers (and cyclists) in a non-authoritative, non-threatening manner. Something that hits home for the average person is exactly what we need. Oh and yes these unruly groups (ie, NRR) need to be reined in to provide a better impression of cyclists...before someone gets killed.

kylieonwheels · 2 months ago

Stop it you guys ;) You're giving me a big head.

I was only just introduced to this blog and I'm really interested in what CT and the rest of you have to say. Very keen to help out where possible.

Ridley · 2 months ago

well said Kylie.

kylieonwheels · 2 months ago

From an appeal perspective...I'm liking the theme of "cool...not cool" :)

Marko · 2 months ago

I am excited about this forum and sincerely hope we can all put these ideas into practice. However I feel this blog and we who are reading it and responding are actually a small part of the cycling population. Whilst we (the beach road, st kilda cyclists) can try to improve things locally anongst the sport/training cuclists I am feeling that this is a limited audience.
Have you ever riden or driven into the city during the day and watched dozens, even hundreds of cyclists, in all kinds of 'kit', riding all types of bikes, running red lights. We in lycra and rediculous shoes can work on our own behavior but what of those 'others'.

hard_man · 2 months ago

that is true, even riden into the city along st kilda road at 8:00am ... that even scares me .. women , men , kids , all types of bikes all want ng to be first to the front of the cars at red lights then all race each off to the next one .... scarier than a SKCC crit !

Dave C · 2 months ago

St Kilda road is the worst! Non lycra clad commuters running red lights left right and centre.

Justin · 2 months ago

The flag bearers of of this have to be those in the high visibility rides, and the only way to improve them is if the strong riders talk those who are riding like tools. Maybe first they have to stop riding like tools...

No way this is going to filter down to the recreational Sunday rider if the riders they aspire to copy don't lead by example. Does anyone even remember the Amy Gillet foundation ads? Hasn't been mentioned even though it was about this precise thing.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

One thing which will help solve the issue of riders moving into other lanes is moving up at the lights. It was etiquette only a few years ago you did not pass at lights. You will find naturally the faster riders end up at the front and the slower riders at the back instead of the slower riders moving up at the lights only to be passed by the quicker ones again. Its a vicious cycle.

stylerider · 2 months ago

what about the old "if you want to play you have to pay"? I would be the first one to pay up for a bike registration that allows me to use the road. If you compare the impact bikes make on the road to that of cars and put a figure against it it would work out to very little. A lot of motorist think that they have sole rights to the road because they pay rego', I think this could help straighten out that perception. Sure we all have cars and pay our rego, its not really the money. The extra $$ could go towards cycle advocacy and initiatives like a clearway on beach road on Saturday mornings etc.
My etiquette item is: don’t cut left straight after passing another rider and cut them off, I'm a weekend warrior but I have found this to be very prevalent, its like the guy is making a point of the fact that the's going quicker or perhaps they think I'm too far on the right.

Tim M · 2 months ago

The problem in Australia is we do not have a true user-pays system.

The GST went someway toward introducing this, but is a half hearted attempt at it.

It is now coming in by way of things like car insurace (youi) and Ken Henry's mooted user-pays car rego or petrol tax (both of which are AWESOME ideas in the long term).

So, you're presuming that bike rego would be on a "impact" basis. I am not sure that would happen. The road lobby is VERY strong and there'd be immense pressure to have a high rego for bikes to compensate for a perceived inconvenience to motorists, notwithstanding the fact that road maintenance is supposed to be largely funded by general revenue by the states (and sometimes Federal Gummint) by way of petrol excise and GST.

Road tolls everywhere or a user pays petrol/rego/insurance regime for cars in concert with increased PT might reduce car loading significantly thereby removing "cyclists are in the way" as a problem anyway. But that's beside the point and not really germane to what we're trying to achieve (sorry for the ramble).

NB · 2 months ago

a youtube campaign with common scenarios from a cyclist's perspective is a great idea. These clips can then be emailed, it would get 'viral', man.

kylieonwheels · 2 months ago

Aw thanks :)

Grace Australia · 2 months ago

The power of the people - brilliant!

I've long thought about recruiting fellow cyclists (of all abilities) who are in media, advertising and 'connected' in these fields - to put together a campaign targeted to mainstream with the theme "Cyclists are people" - they're sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, mums and dads, aunties, uncles, grandparents - they're school teachers, students, nurses, doctors, work colleagues, cousins, friends and neighbours (etc)... I'm sure everyone knows someone who rides a bike whether their commuters and recreational riders to elite competitors - we're all people.

Putting humanity into the 'cyclist' label is a positive step - the friendly nod, the wave of acknowledgment and communicating from a place where (despite what happens on the road) our aim is to educate and create awareness - as opposed to berating uneducated wrongdoers.

While a mainstream media campaign might be a long shot - a YouTube viral campaign would be a great avenue and is a fabulous idea!

Twoeee · 2 months ago

I pose the question has ayone actually simple commuted home after work with all and sundry?

Taxis parked in bike lanes = cyclist in the traffic lane.
Cars clogging up intersections = cyclists weaving in and out of traffic.
Commuters on bikes running red lights = angry motorist and angry cyclists who have just passed said commuter
Pedestrians crossing roads without looking = abuse from cyclists and abuse from pedestrians

The real body to engage is the TAC, they have the power to help educate through the media.

However as Wade has said it starts with us as cyclists, motorists and pedestrians, 1 small step for man (woman), one giant leap for mankind

Do to others as you would have them do to you

Skillsy · 2 months ago

Top effort CT and agree wholeheartedly.

Cool: Bright clothing/lighting at dusk - the peak period of cycling injuries in Victoria.
Significantly Uncool: Getting in front of a truck at the lights when you know it will struggle to pass you again on the other side of the lights.
Totally uncool: Passing stationary trams at tram stops - Swanston Street in particular.
Totally strange: lack of chat in the NRR

Leigh · 2 months ago

Leigh gets up on Soapbox.
CT when the list is complete, I am sure all the local clubs in Victoria at least, would feel comfortable to send it out to their mailing list or publish it on their websites. Should increase the penetration.
I agree that if we want this to work, if many people start to make some noise at least around the organised training rides, cycling clubs, recreational bike routes then there will be some flow on effect.
Around the Bay in a Day would be a great place to encourage conversation amongst cyclists of all abilities, to discuss ways in which they will improve their behaviour. Not sure it could be organised on short notice
We do need to put the onus on ourselves though, not wait for you or a cycling body to tell us. If your readers feel strongly about the issue they should take it on themselves to be advocates. Bring up the topic in bunch rides, make an effort to adhere to at least the road rules, as well as any specific cycling ones we come up with.
If it means you don't get to finish a bunch ride with the bunch because of a red light so be it. Maybe the old slow down after the red light to let the others catch up could be re-introduced.
Step off soapbox.

Jon · 2 months ago

So many comments! These may have already been said but:

cool = acknowledging the kindness of motorists
cool = pulling over to let cars go past when you know there is a long narrow lane up ahead (no opportunity to overtake)
cool = overtaking non-moving cars on the far left at traffic lights/jams
not cool = overtaking cars between lanes
not cool = overtaking moving cars on the left (unless they are practically stopped)
not cool = hopping onto the path to get through a red light
not cool = racing cars off at the lights when there isn't room
not cool = overtaking other riders/parked cars without doing a shoulder-check

I'll no doubt have others spring to mind as I'm drifting off to sleep.

This is a great idea CT and hopefully it can build some goodwill between cyclists and motorists.

drug pedaller · 2 months ago

All this talk of tolerance and good will to dick motorists is gunna ruin my commute.

anon · 2 months ago

I assume this posting is a joke. The webcam posted a couple of days ago shows cyclists all over the road, in your bunch! Come up to Sydney and learn to ride in a straight line (and fast!).

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

Did you read the post? This is all about the fact that we're sometimes all over the roads (such as the helmet cam vid) and we're sitting here demanding respect. We can't have it both ways.

I was also talking with someone this morning who rides in Sydney quite often. By the sounds of it there's no city in Australia that doesn't have some housekeeping to take care of.

anon · 2 months ago

Can read fine. My point is you can't on the one hand say cool, look what you missed this morning (riders all over the shop) and then say, I want to be a bastion of road etiquette. I doubt those guys are demanding respect, I suspect they don't give a f%#. I think you have a great site and I like your sentiment but I think the effect of you rocking up with a vid cam will far outweigh words two days later to say wo that was terrible. Why do you keep riding with a bunch like that?

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

I think we both agree on this but we're just saying it differently.

The timing of my helmet cam video and the Magda rant couldn't have been more coincidental. Here I am sensationalizing these massive bunch rides one day and then the next day I'm being an advocate for respect on the roads.

I could either sit here and take a stance that the behavior on these rides is fun and cool, or I could realize the hypocrisy in what I'm doing and try to plant the seed for some positive change. I don't talk to anyone who doesn't think this behavior is out of line. This morning's ride was shocking.

anon · 2 months ago

I hear where you are coming from. I am sure you can sense my frustration - I have been in large bunch and told to f-off when I have suggested people are out of line. If there are some leaders in the bunch, such as yourself perhaps, then maybe more success. Best of luck and keep the rubber side down.

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

hopefully there will be many leaders in the bunch. Like I said, I see a massive change in the perception of running red lights. Everyone shames the odd rider who does this on bunch rides now.

Dave C · 2 months ago

Hey what about starting a "cycliquette" ride on the same routes in each city? Start 5 mins earlier or later. Strictly controlled Top 5 rules and communication encouraged. Lead by example and let the rule breakers me punished with exclusion/cold shoulder?

Tommy P · 2 months ago

How about starting a "Heaven Ride" at 7:15 from Black Rock on Saturday. I had a Policeman tell me that he doesn't care if riders ride more than two abreast to overtake etc as long as they stick to one lane. I think we can work with this and also stop at red lights.

Also, need to stop idiots on the Thursday night ride.. Last week I saw someone lean on cars stopped at lights then abuse the driver when they were asked to move. What a cock! This was one ride that was well behaved but now a bit of NRR attitude is starting to appear.

Twoeee · 2 months ago

Why would we go to Sydney? Everyone knows Melbourne is better than Sydney.

blackslk · 2 weeks ago

because it's a nice ride.

James · 2 months ago

Maybe not an etiquitte issue, and it's fairly obvious, but...

Make sure your friends, family and workmates are aware that you are a cyclist. In my opinion when people think that the cyclist that is 'inconveniencing them on *their* roads' may be someone they know and care about, they are more likely to show respect for all cyclists.

(or perhaps they just keep their mouths shut about cyclists when I'm in the car)

Grace Australia · 2 months ago

Totally agree James - I wrote in reply to Kylie (above) "cyclists are people... putting humanity into the ‘cyclist’ label is a positive step" - and what you've suggested does exactly that! Connecting with all our various communities (work, family, friends, other interests etc) is a great step in the right direction. I'll also be sharing this very discussion about cyclists coming together and forming a 'cycliquette'... it's totally brilliant!

Andy, WA · 2 months ago

I agree!
My partner was a bit of cyclist hater when I met her; so was her family. But, not after getting to know me and all those I cycle with she and her family are much more tolerant of cyclists on the road. Even her work mates are more aware of cyclists as she often comments to them about the various races I've competed in.

So yeah, talking about you passion to your friends, workmates, and family helps spread the word that cyclists are people too and just want to get home safely.

Tim Bodger · 2 months ago

This sort of debate has been happening in Auckland for the last 2 weeks. A group of 20 cyclists was hit by a driver who failed to stop at a stop sign resulting in 4 being hospitalised (one with head injuries). Who is to say the drivers foot slipped off the brake??
This happened along the waterfront which is a popular place for cyclists. The roads dont have a designated bike path (there is a shared footpath that is always crammed with families, walkers - some with dogs, rollerbladers, runners etc. The side of the road is usually lined with parked cars.
In the local media has been a cyclists vs drivers debate.
This forum is the brainstorming that is needed over here. We have the Mechanics Bay bunch that has actully forced me to stop on a corner as they were riding the opposite direction! This leaves 8am on Saturday mornings heading out onto some arterial routes (how exactly do you avoid these living on an isthmus?) riding mainly 2 abreast. Numbers in Oct/Nov can get up to 60 odd riders at a guesstimate.
Wade, I would like 2 cycling websites over here to post the ‘cycliquette’ rules for NZ cyclists to see as well.
Meanwhile Ill just keep riding as if motorists cant see me.

Jon · 2 months ago

GIVE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT: I think its important to give drivers the benefit of the doubt. If a driver does do something stupid or careless don't jump to the conclusion that they were trying to cut you off or kill you. Chances are they just didn't see you - the best way to make sure they look next time is to make sure they care. Generally they wont care too much for the next guy if you've unleashed a tirade of abuse on them. (that doesn't mean you should just pretend it didn't happen!)

DONT GET INVOLVED IN WARS WITH ABUSIVE INDIVIDUALS: I think it's important not to react to irrational abuse from some motorists. When I've copped abuse it's generally been when I have been doing nothing wrong at all, and if I start yelling back and giving one fingered salutes you look as bad as they do. If someone randomly abused me in a shopping mall, I think I'd just quickly leave them alone assuming they have some kind of problem - as soon as you react you look as irrational as they do. I guess the gist of it is 'don't let them bring you down to their level'.

Dave C · 2 months ago

Agree but it is very difficult.. as per the "scare" post. Whenever I act abusively it has always been a strong reaction to fear and feeling threatened. I nearly always regret it later and it doesn't help your cause.

Jon · 2 months ago

Yeah I agree, I've sometimes reacted quickly to a situation in a way I later regretted. I do aspire to being cool, calm and collected at all times though!

Pierre · 2 months ago

One thing that I find really annoying is when the group gathers at the corner of Carlisle and Barkly st at 6:30pm for the Tuesday night ride, they block the whole footpath and no one moves to let pedestrians though. I've seen pedestrians have to walk onto the road to get around the group. This sort of behaviour does not help our cause. Please be mindful of this and at least leave half of the footpath free.

Tim M · 2 months ago

Good point. Intimidating to pedestrians and an inconvenience. I guess part of the problem is we're trying to create a race/leisure ride on what is effectively an arterial route (rightly or wrongly an arterial).

There's a strong hint of elitism and standoffishness amongst us and I hadn't really thought about it until reading all this.

Good on you Wade. You're some sort of Aussie Seth Godin creating a tribe. I see billions in it. ;p

The Rabbit · 2 months ago

Good point Pierre; same goes for running pedestrian light reds. Keep in mind most pedestrians are drivers too.

Steve F · 2 months ago

This is a great idea Wade - its about time someone spoke out against the cowboy cylists on our roads.

Uncool - running reds
Uncool - cutting in way too close when passing riders
Uncool - riding two abreast and passing other riders doing the same hence taking both lanes - i dont care if it's legal or not - how hard is it to single out?!
Uncool - as mentioned, swarming cars/other cyclists at reds - get in the queue and wait your turn!
Uncool - tea drinkers!

DC · 2 months ago

re your third point, its not legal. The law only allows for single file riders to pass others riding two abreast. however, it makes no mention of two abreast passing a single file group...

Tim M · 2 months ago

Actually 2 abreast is legal in normal situations, riding at a width of 1.5 for two bikes.

There was a big argument on ski.com.au about this and we did a lot of digging in the Vic RR and Road Acts.

t

DC · 2 months ago

Sometimes you will see a "head start" bicycle lane (as described in the attached VicRoads document at Page 25 - http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/CA5..., although most commonly they are a 'bicycle box lane' at the head of the entire left lane. However I'm not sure if this is intended to encourage lane splitting to reach the front. I'm awaiting some clarification from VicRoads, although I imagine some motorists don't like to see cyclists 'block' their road, so discretion should be used. It seems some motorists clearly move their car into the left gutter to avoid bikes going past at lights - do we really want to then put ourselves in front of such a driver again...?

James Foran · 2 months ago

Interesting reading. Very much from the Car drivers perspective. I think what CT is trying to achieve here, is something similar from a cyclists perspective.

DT · 2 months ago

I did the North Road Ride this morning and observed from the back. It was embarrassing to be a part of. We occupied 3 lanes at one point. Must have been over 100 riders large.

John Citizen · 2 months ago

If its embarrassing dont ride it then. Also if you were up the front you would notice when we take a couple of lanes its becuase where going around parked cars!

Have Bike will travel · 2 months ago

It is no excuse. Lets think this one through shall we.

anon · 2 months ago

Right on John. DT, why do you keep riding with a bunch like that? Cause you REALLY don't think its that embarrassing? Not embarrasing enought to start a new bunch?
I ride every day but it drives me crazy to hear riders crap on like this and then they are out in the same bunch next week. There is safety in numbers issues but how hard is it to start a different bunch.

Steve F · 2 months ago

Have to agree with this - if you have ever witnessed the final sprint to the line from the NRR it's embarassing - riders all over the road with no care or attention of other road users.

Travis · 2 months ago

I have to agree with thepreceeding comments DT I used to ride the NRR but because of the size and the hazardous apporach to the road some of the group take myself and a group of mates (6-8) now ride in front of the 5.45 to stay out of it.

Have Bike will travel · 2 months ago

A little courtesy goes a long way. I was coming back yesterday from a morning ride, a truck behind was slowing and waiting for me to turn left, he gave me plenty of room. I put up my hand to acknowledge this and as he passed he gave a quick honk and a wave.

I have been consciously trying to acknowledge drivers who have to wait for more room to overtake or that I am holding them up.

I was a big fan of the NRR but after my wife incident with the NRR and that I have been riding with her and experience what she has to put up with I would say this:

1) There is a pack mentality with big fast group rides.
2) A high level of testosterone exists
3) lack of regard for road rules (especially coming through narrow part of the road)
4) lack of courtesy for other riders and drivers

Not that I am blaming other riders as I also have been participated in these rides. However, with CT's blogs and riding with my wife, these issues get discuss. I am trying to be a better and more courteous riders.

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

@JohnCitizen,
I sat in the back of the NRR today as well just watching. I'm usually up at the front driving the pace completely oblivious to what the riders are doing behind me. I'm far from being model citizen of the road but I was shocked at what I saw this morning from the back.

Riders were pulling into the right lane infront of cars without looking (not at times of passing parked cars), there were 3 lanes blocked on Nepean Hwy at one point (again, no parked cars). These weren't the hack riders doing this. It was experienced riders.

When someone in the media badmouths cyclists i get hundreds of emails in my inbox asking me to retort. How am I supposed to publicly demand respect for us cyclists with a straight face when this behavior is going on?

Tim M · 2 months ago

Yes. I've only been up the front on a Tues/Thurs once and when you're chewing the tape (I'm not a grinding crit monster like you and Mr Tall Socks B Phelan etc) you have no clue. Up the back it is shocking. Can you turn your cam on one morning and post it here to show everyone what NOT to do.

My mate made a good point and said, given how vulnerable you are, it's up to you to ride defensively and assume you're going to get taken out so do everything you can to protect against that. My 65 kg against 1.5-2 tonnes every morning ensures I take that attitude - it also helps spread some good will to us as a whole when you do the right thing.

Riding up the back of the NRR and seeing clowns pull into the inner lane without looking and getting honked, just darting across to the median outside racer etc, it's frightening, shocking, scary and also very frustrating.

Like I said, a bit of helmet cam should show us what not to do.
I took a photo of someone riding like a twat the other morning at the back of the NRR, and I was going to send it to you for a WYMTM but decided against it.

Ritch · 2 months ago

Perhaps the participants in the NRR need a shift in focus - those in the rotation are obviously working on fitness, but the non-rotating part should probably be focusing on skills and cycliquette. Even if you're a bit weaker, the skill to work on is the ability to concentrate and ride smoothly when you're close to your maximum effort in just hanging on. Remember that you can thrash yourself on your own any time, but improving your fast bunch riding skills can only happen when you ride in a fast bunch. Maybe when you find yourself starting to get a bit ragged is the time to let the bunch go - ie, go as hard as you can as long as you can, but if your skills are deteriorating then it is time to drop off.

The NRR is very useful, but it and the HR seem to be the examples held up of riders doing the wrong thing. It doesn't have to be this way...

Steve F · 2 months ago

I agree with your points about riders hanging on Ritch.

But in many cases this is not the problem - i have witnessed riders up the front all over the road coming into the finish at the BP - when i made comments on another forum i was told that the final sprint was 'good training' which well it might be, the highway is not the place.

NB · 2 months ago

You don't need to practice your sprinting on an open road. In Melbourne there are 2-3 criteriums to compete in and practice all these skills every week.

The problems are caused by guys who aren't fit enough to ride at that pace and will do anything to stay on. They have no idea that no-one is impressed by this. Races are where you can learn most and where your performances will get respect, not training rides.

Leigh · 2 months ago

I know it is un-Australian but would a shame file work?
Basically dob in a d##head! Anonymously would be fine with me. Makes people more accountable.

Anon · 2 months ago

I have done the NRR in the past and have enjoyed it, however, I haven't done it in a while and have no intentions at this point to return, despite wanting to. Generally the safest part of the bunch to sit is the front third, which is where I tried to sit. I have seen cyclists riding three abreast riding all the way to Southland in an attempt to sit in the front third of the bunch instead of staying where they started. I have seen people jumping forward in the bunch when it gets caught at the lights. And I have been frustrated and annoyed with the surge which occurs on the approach to Mordi... this surge now starts as soon as White Street has been passed. Riders from the back quickly overtake and surge to the front. Through Mordi the bunch then takes up the majority of the road. At the roundabout the riders surge through and then the pace is on... From this point the bunch is generally single file then two abreast. But I used to get very annoyed when the bunch would be on the very right hand side of the left lane and almost in the right lane rather than sticking to the left of the left lane. It is a high intensity training ride not a race! If I hear that the bunch is better behaved I will gladly give it another go... but until then I'll save my high intensity training rides for the local club road and crit races.

Have Bike will travel · 2 months ago

Is this the same Anon as commenter #94? As you seem to be in Sydney and also in Melb.

Anon · 2 months ago

No, different Anon... I'm only in Melbourne.

Dan · 2 months ago

Although the training rides do need to be addressed, these rides still represent a very small proportion (albeit highly visible) of cyclists on the roads. It may also bear thinking about how this message might reach all cycling groups; I am not so sure your average commuter "looks up to" the average racer/PRO, but all cyclists have an impact on motorists' perceptions thereof.

pmark1bike · 2 months ago

Just because CT facilitates this blog, it shouldn't be up to him to fix the problems with the NRR or any other ride!

We all need to play a part within our own groups.

I'm not as fit as I should be at the moment, so I try to ride as a "gate keeper" at the rear of the rotating group in front of the hanger ons. This gives you a chance to call the riders though and give feed back if necessary, while keeping the rear of the bunch neat.

Tim M · 2 months ago

Correct, however W is building both authority, critical mass, a tribe, and therefore, a great deal of influence and platform for reasoned thought and appeal to reason (hat tip: Rise Against).

His pragmatism and well balanced thought reasonate, and these, coupled with the elements I mentioned above, provide a great deal of inertia and ability to effect change.

It would be profligate and in my opinion, irresponsible, to waste this credibility and mandate.

pmark1bike · 2 months ago

I agreed it would be licentious to ignore the ground swell the blogg is causing, but does WW want to been seen as a figure head for Cycling in Melbourne or even Australia? Perhaps he wants to control the world!!! ;-)

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

Hmm...not so sure I ever intended to be a figure head. I think of myself as just raising topics and providing a platform for these discussions with like-minded people.

Ridley · 2 months ago

let's hope he's not part of 'Critical Mass'. We don't need their attitude that is for sure.

Backbencher · 2 months ago

Regarding the NRR ride, I'm part of it once a week I can assure you that it's always the SAME riders doing the wrong thing. I identified them easily because they are riders that we see in club races.

Marshalling roster could be an option and issuing Yellow & Red cards. ??After all it's our ride and our sport, WE are the ones to clean it up.

hard_man · 2 months ago

you are not seriuos are you ?

Anonymous · 2 months ago

We are brainstorming here...have you got an idea ?

Tim M · 2 months ago

Why not? It's a great idea. If the same repreobates every time, then why not.

It makes my ride more dangerous by perpetuating a bad name against cycling as a whole, and I am therefore affected by the actions of a wilful and ignorant few.

Paul · 2 months ago

I always give a little wave to any driver who either makes an attempt to accomodate me when I am riding or anyone who I inconvenience by having to go outside of the bike lane. I think that if we show consideration to drivers they will show consideration back.

Anon · 2 months ago

I agree... I always give a friendly wave when drivers see me and are courteous and considerate. I also give a friendly smile and wave when drivers are beeping me... I just let them asume I'm a bit ditsy and maybe they'll think they might know me!

parmaandapot · 2 months ago

The 5.45 and 6.00am groups are too big to control and there is no way that anyone is going to get them to change their behaviour. Only thing we can do is not join in.
What about creating a fast but safe 6.05 / 6.10 NRR.

-No bunching at the lights
-No swarming cars
-No overtaking and cutting in - overtake and you go to the front a pull.
-Some form of self policing in the group


I'd happily come back to the NRR for a ride like this, understand the 5.45am was started with these intentions but its too early and its getting big as well.

Dave C · 2 months ago

Yes! The Cycliquette ride. 6.05am would probably be better than squeezing between the other two. Wouldn't want early/late bad eggs jumping in from the other groups now would we?

jay pee · 2 months ago

I 've been a bit of door bitch on NRR for a number of years now (I get sick of hearing my own voice "Keep Left") and get a bit of back up from a few others however would be great to see the majority of the riders speak up against the dick heads.On a good note the riding on the back of trucks/cars and stopping no stations is a thing of the past hence the under 50 min record is never to be broken.
Lets speak out against these riders who continue to push the boundaries of whats kosher.

MrT · 2 months ago

For all the bad press that Beach/North Rd group rides get, they are a small part of the problem. The bigger problem lies with the peak hour commuters, who make up the larger, visible, percentage of riders. Monash University recently released their study findings of ‘red light runners’ and the lycra clad, roadies were the least offenders. The regular clothed, middle aged, guy on a mountain bike was the worst offender. Those guys don’t visit here, only ride ocassionally and probably drive like they ride. We need to keep our noses clean, disassociate ourselves from these guys and encourage clamping down on them.

Problem is, there are a million more drivers that need to be chased up for the stuff they do as well. The driving culture in Australia needs to change, big time, as well as us.

Tim M · 2 months ago

This is a very good point. Church St Richmond: fixies, singles, uni students, all manner of non lycra degenerates.

Yes the driving culture is going to have to change, but until we're no longer a wide open country of sweeping plains (i.e. "get the [rude word] out of my way!oneone1111shiftshift11"") then it won't.

Changing from within sometimes seems the hardest but might provide the greatest ROI.

FWIW I think when oil goes to US200/barrel, and PubTransport gets the attention and funding it deserves, and people start looking at smaller cars and a less-is-more society prevails, people might be more considerate (might). We need to change NOW though.

Difficult questions, unclear answers. Good discussion though!

Matt · 2 months ago

I remember that article as well about regular clothed mountain bikers (followed shortly by Wendy having a go at lycra clad riders...but anyway moving on)

I agree that we as the "lycra clad elite" group need to set an example. What about getting some "Cycliquette" jersey's printed up and all who wear them set a shining example for all to follow?

JD · 2 months ago

I'd fully support that, I'd buy for a Cyclequette jersey in a flash.

Matt · 2 months ago

With all proceeds going to a Cycliquette campaign! or to me...I don't mind =)

Steve F · 2 months ago

All valid points - would be interested to hear when the research was carried out? i.e. did they get up @ 530 and research the early bunches?

Travis · 2 months ago

Great point Mr T.

I have had this discussion/argument many times with non-cyclist friends and family and asked them to make note how often it was a "lycra clad" rider that broke the law.

Interesting response came back of about 1 in 30.

Damn Commuters:-)

Conor · 2 months ago

Cool - Stopping at reds (been done I know)

Uncool - Stopping at reds PAST the white line, attempting to trackstand but slowly creeping into the intersection blocking the cars trying to turn right coming the other way with the green arrow. (Black specialised, francaise des Jeux jersey at the intersection of nepean hwy and station st Carrum this morning.)

Conor

The Rabbit · 2 months ago

Uncool - attempting a trackstand at the lights and creeping forward into the pedestrian crossing or into the intersection!

The Rabbit · 2 months ago

Uncool - failing to read the previous entry prior to posting.

kylieonwheels · 2 months ago

:-P

Chris Little · 2 months ago

I'm one of CT's 12% - not a racer at all - and have learnt a lot about groups by reading all this. So now I suggest there might need be two lists:
Top 5 for all cyclists (predictable, no running red lights, ...)
Top 5 for groups (no swarming, ...)

Chris Little · 2 months ago

Off-topic here, but there could also be top 5 for MTB/off-road

Marchello · 2 months ago

Uncool - blocking left turn lane with green arrow preventing cars from behind going.

Paul · 2 months ago

uncool - trying to be cool!

MH · 2 months ago

I've been around for a long time in the Canberra scene, been j*cked off, spoken up, shrugged shoulders, yelled, given 'gentle counselling' to a few, given the bunch a spray on numerous occasions etc etc. More recently I've taken a back seat and watched things in semi-retirement. I've seen some shocking moves - think we all have, those days have to be behind us.

The culture is slowly changing here, and this is due, in part, to just a few individuals standing up, showing some balls, and speaking out - but also leading by example and this comes from the 'top' down.

Cycling as a whole has PLENTY of peanuts and guys with massive egos, ones that are often easily bruised and they don't take constructive criticism easily. It comes back to the first few that speak up in a constructive manner to reprimand those that are doing the wrong thing.

Riders usually do what they've been taught to do, or get accustomed to as the norm, and the bad habits they've learned just need to be unlearned, pretty simple really. We can teach the novices coming through the right thing but most of the guys we are referring to on this blog are past that point, they've learnt from the last generation.

Initially, those guys that spoke up were sniggered at, called the 'bunch police' etc etc but after a short time this passes and the bunch as a whole tidies up their act for the betterment of our reputation. That driver that you piss off this week might use the same bit of road every day of the year at the same time, so you need to know they have some respect for you.

In regards to the other main offenders of breaking rule #1 - ie DON'T run reds - which I call the 'commuter' - catch up to them and explain in a calm a clear manner 'what you did doesn't do US any favours'. Often they don't even know what they are doing is bad...

Keep up the good work CT and to all the 'Alpha Riders' out there - it starts with YOU.

bill posters · 2 months ago

id love to see TC* give you a spray when you rock up to him on a busy friday arvo and tell him not to bust red lights. bet a dollar his response includes the f bomb and the c bomb.

Harmer · 2 months ago

After doing time in Montreal and in DC as a bike messenger I can sympathize with the guys doing it for a living, getting paid on commission it blows every second you're not spinning the pedals. Nature of the beast.

However, on the other side of it, many guys (and girls) suffered the consequences of their risks. People die. RIP Nik.
Not saying it's ok for couriers, but your training ride or commute sure aint worth taking any risks.

Many tintop operators will time the green and you 'push' the amber a little too far it's all over.

jack · 2 months ago

MH, how much did it cost you to get jacked off in the Canberra "scene"?

Mike T · 2 months ago

I agree, we need to clean up our own house first. There is a town here in Oklahoma, USA that has started ticketing cyclists for not coming to a complete stop because one group of idiots decided they wanted to run a stop sign at speed and sent on rider ahead to block the intersection so everyone else could blow the stop sign.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

Police the NNR ride. The police being the 3 major teams in Melbourne. Your own "o2" team, total rush and prime estate. These are the most common and visible kits in the pack each week. Get together and talk about what should be enforced then get out on the NNR and enforce them together. Publish the rules on BV forums and CTB, at 5.55am at the start of the NNR let everyone know, idiot behaviour will not be tolerated.
Everybody in the peloton looks up to you guys and will do what you do (me included) Peer pressure has no age limits. I see you blokes doing stupid stuff all the time! and you guys are our role models when it comes to cycling.

Backbencher · 2 months ago

I agree with that...Let them practice what they preach. Like I said earlier, I can identify who are those doing the wrong thing and in many instances riders were from these 3 groups....I have the proof from this morning NRR

Anon · 2 months ago

I like this idea... I remember doing one 5:45 ride where someone spoke B4 the ride and the bunch was generally better behaved.

You need to be careful about saying it's the TR (or O2 or PE) team who is misbehaving (of course, there might be some that do). As an example, not everyone who wears the Total Rush kit is actually in the team; there are lots of riders around who have bought the all pink shop kit because it looks "cool" (I don't agree... but the newer kit that I've spotted around with black on it does look OK).

Backbencher · 2 months ago

Then we should stop circling the pot and start identifying ny NAMES.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

Sorry I didn’t mean that they are the only one’s misbehaving. Everyone does to a degree.I said they are the most recognisable riders in the bunch and the ones WE look up too. But your right about the total rush kit, anyone can wear the pretty in pink kit. The prime estate and O2 kit on the other hand are not available for sale (i don’t think) so they could / should be our role models.
I am not too proud to accept tips and suggestions from more experience riders out there. In fact i like it when someone gives me a few pointers on how to improve. Big problem is most (i use that term loosely) A grade riders in Melbourne are too cool to talk to someone in C or D grade. I frequently see new riders on the road doing silly things and not knowing they are doing them because no one has ever told them. Give friendly advice guys and deliver it in a way that beginners / intermediate rides won’t take offence.

If you think you’re not a role model..... Think again! Brendan fevola didn’t choose to be one either but he is.

Fashion Advisor · 2 months ago

The fluro pink TR kit is pretty gay

Not really a fan of white Primestate "crack panel" either ;) especially on wet days when it covered in cr@p.

sorry - back to serious discussion :)

Tim · 2 months ago

That's because you're not a smart businessman (presumably).
Simon is a smart dude.

Only real men wear pink. I'll be all over it at Stromlo this weekend then at the Tour de Bright.

Word.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

Great idea about the teams being role models and marshalling the rides !

Anthony · 2 months ago

In defence of WW - I heard him a couple of times asking if 3 lanes were necessary for the group this morning at Nepean Highway and Warrigul Rd!

Will RS · 2 months ago

Just like to say I'm a big fan of being more respectful of other road users... a smile and a wave goes a long way, e.g when a motorist has demonstrated patience and waited for a bunch of cyclists at a roundabout etc. It goes a lot further than banging on a car window as you ride by after some perceived misdemeanour on the part of the driver, who may well not be aware that he/she had done anything wrong. Motorists and cyclists alike are guilty of having a generally low level of respect for other road users and I think that's probably part and parcel of living in a big city... I cant see it ever being all sunshine and flowers out there, but we can certainly do our bit to help improve relations.
However..... I think its a mistake to treat bikes and cars as the same thing, and subject to exactly the same rules; I see a lot of people above commenting that we should not cut through traffic, ride on the footpath etc etc. But surely the cool thing about bikes is that they give us the freedom and mobility to get away from the grind of being stuck in a car? The beauty of riding a bike through the city is that ones journey is so much more flowing and you can circumvent a lot of the traffic jams and get straight to the front of the queue (isn't that why they have the little bike boxes painted on the road at the lights anyway?) If you need to take a short cut, you can cut across the pedestrian crossing (only if its green of course) hop on the kerb for a few metres (always giving way to pedestrians), jump back on the road and continue on your new trajectory. Of course you have to be careful, watch out for cars, pedestrians, make sure you are courteous... and that comes with experience also. But fundamentally, that's what makes riding through the city on a bike so great - it flows, its organic, its a cool thing. If we ride our bikes like we are driving cars, then what's the point? By the way, I drive to work all the time so I know what its like on the other side of the fence, as I'm sure 90% of cyclists do. Anyway, as several people have already pointed out I think the most important thing is to be thoughtful and courteous in the way you ride. This isn't really about just following road rules, its riding in a way that's appropriate to the road situation - reading the road and the traffic and riding accordingly. Basically just being aware.

Anyway, I'm just drivelling on... have a good day everyone!

PS....One 'cool' tip....if you get some random abuse from a motorist then just smile and wave and pretend to be oblivious to the fact that they are giving you shit. A) it confuses them B) It make them look like an angry dickhead and you the calm, patient, happy-go-lucky fun dude that everyone wants to be friends with.

Kate · 2 months ago

That is why I ride in the city too. Although after reading this yesterday I was more aware of how my casual use of the roads and footpaths may offend some drivers, but as usual I tried to be safe and courteous and got no problems at all.

On my ride home I often encounter cars in the bike lanes. I respond to this with a shake of my head and look of dissapointment at the driver and I have never given verbal abuse. I have been there when other riders have yelled or thumped the car and it has made me very uncomfortable. I would have sunk into the ashphalt if I could. Please don't do that, it makes us all look bad.

FST · 2 months ago

1:Know, understand and follow the road rules; (covers all the below)
2:If riding two abreast, only do so on a dual lane highway or major road (and even then stay to the left so other groups can pass you in the same lane on the right);
3:Dont push to the front of the traffic in a group at lights, only to hold the traffic back up. Single line it.
4:Dont sprint....ie race in a group and take up all lanes, public roads are for training, not racing;
5:When turning across traffic, stay to the left until all clear and then cross, don't cut and weave through other cyclists and traffic.

Me · 2 months ago

All this discussion is good.

A pre race chat at the NRR is a good idea.

Hopefully all this just starts to filter through everyones attitude and things slowly change for the better.

This site is an excellent forum for change.

Well done.

DDD · 2 months ago

"A pre race chat at the NRR is a good idea"

Surely you mean "pre-ride chat"?

Me · 2 months ago

Ahh Yes, pre ride. Sorry.

Jono · 2 months ago

Another NRR observation. It doesn't just happen on fast days. When there's a big group on Monday or Friday it can still spill into two lanes on the highway as people move toward the front. I'm a relative newcomer and wondering what's the point of being further forward on the slow days?

AC · 2 months ago

Agreed, there is no point. If you want a bit more of a workout, it's actually better to hang down the back and when the inevitable split occurs you get to punch out an interval chasing back on. I hadn't ridden Friday for a while and when I did again recently was surprised to see how big and untidy it has got. Used to be two abreast the whole way, cruisy 30-35km/h and always a good opportunity to have a chat to the rider next to you. Now it's three abreast, fluctuating in speed and not chatty at all. A shame really. I reckon there's a good case to split the NRR into more groups of manageable sizes

Marchello · 2 months ago

I was also in the NNR on wed morning and noticed it was particularly bad. Going up Nepean hwy i saw someone from the front pull out to let others through and a truck came past at exactly the same time....very close

It has been mentioned above - HEAD check!! its not that hard. Wait for the cars to go past before overtaking or pulling out.

Triathlete · 2 months ago

TT bikes are cool in bunches, right guys?

Jason · 2 months ago

haha!! hilarious!

pmark1bike · 2 months ago

Only if you are in the middle of the bunch on your Tri bars!!!!!!!

Juz · 2 months ago

I have to agree with the previous poster who suggested that there could be a role for the team riders to be more visible out on training rides. More visible as a positive influence on riding behaviour, that is! This can be marketed to potential sponsors as a plus- more people are likely to come across us during training than will see us at races (The crowds at those races are gettin' larger all the time eh?).

cyclingtips · 2 months ago

Excellent discussion so far guys. We're starting to see some trends in what the majority of you see as being the problems that need to be addressed.

It would be interesting to hear some comments from the old timers who have been around for years to tell us what's been attempted in the past and what has worked and failed.

old timer · 2 months ago

What worked was old hardmen controlling the lower grade club races and teaching the new comers the basics. A larger proportion of riders back then were club members and so there was a critical mass, of sorts, of people who knew how to ride.

These days, due to cycling's increased popularity, there are a large number of people on bikes turning the pedals over, but without the benefit of an education, they don't really know how to ride.

These guys get fit and then turn up to street races like the HR or NRR and we've all seen what happens.

As for offering one-on-one advice to these riders... Will T's comment "There are so many heroes on Beach Rd now, who think because they can ride with the Tues/Thurs fast NRR..." really sums up the problem.

The Slow Rider · 2 months ago

too much to read now... but seriously, I see so many dumb commuters running red lights, pedestrian lights and stationary trams, I am embarrassed to be on my bike in public... and as for the hell ride....TOTALLY appalling, embarrassing and destructive to any of this good debate... so that is the cyclists AND the commuters. both shooting themselves in their collective feet. So while this message gets out to the "cyclists" who is telling the rest of the "bike riders" that illegal behavior is not at all cool anymore??

Patrick · 2 months ago

Great piece Wade, I heartily agree. I'm very pleased to see you heckling cyclists who run red lights, I really should do this more in London.

I have three general rules to keep my cycling in check;

1 - Get to your destination safely
2 - Respect the rules of the road
3 - When you can, go as fast as you can...

AS · 2 months ago

As wife of a cyclist (FS), I was frightened and disgusted to be subject to cyclist rage this evening.

Whist driving along Jasper Road in McKinnon around 6 pm, I was confronted by an enraged cyclist who, for no apparent reason, and, I believe no fault of my own, became so angered that he sought kick and damage the front end of my vehicle, threw a drink bottle at me and put his fist through my left rear view mirror braking and disabling it completely. Total criminal damage to my vehicle is estimated to be in excess of $2,000-. This matter I have reported to the police.

To "Cycling Tips" - thanks for encouraging vindictive and spiteful behaviour that verges on being criminal.

To the cyclist - you are either a moron, idiot, excrement, compound looser or all of the aforementrioned

To other cyclist - keep a eye out for a rider in a predominantly blue kit with white, legs shaven (probably a competative local cyclist training for upcoming crits or other events), medium hieght, slim build, dark hair, middle age, caucasian, missing a CSC Saxo Bank drink bottle near the corner of Jasper Road and Charmers Street in McKinnon, rides along Grange Road from Toorak through Jasper Raod in Mckinnon/Bentleigh on Monday evenings on either a training ride or returning from work, and, harbours an extreme and violent disdane of middle age female motorists. He is doing other cyclist a dis-service with his behaviour and attitude, and, will only encourage to me to take defensive action by running others of similar ilk off the roads that we all share.

If this cyclist is known to visitors of this site please report the matter to Moorabbin Police

David Rafferton · 2 months ago

AS- I am very sorry to hear of your horrible encounter. But to blame Cycling Tips for this- how do you get THAT?

If you read Cycling Tips, he is a STRONG advocate for building better relationships between cyclists and motorists and is always calling for riders to cool their heels. I think you have miss read something somewhere along the way.

What the cyclist did is wrong- no two ways about it. You "may" have done something wrong unknown to yourself for all we know, but that STILL doesn't excuse his aggressiveness.

Just remember- cyclists are just people on a bicycle. The same people that drive cars, walk, ride skate boards and so on. Focus on the person, not the mode of transport.

AS · 2 months ago

Perhaps rightly or wrongly, I ought to have rephrased and better articulated my anger over the rogue cyclists indiscretion by choosing words more befittingly. But having read the previous comments from some contributing bloggers and not necesserily those from CT editorial, the general thrust of the debate gave the impression of insighting an "us versus them" mentality - "us" being innocent cyclists versus "them" being negligent motorists.

Dave C · 2 months ago

AS... I am very sorry to hear about this incident and the damages caused to your vehicle. But how on earth do you expect readers of this blog to help you when, if I'm not mistaken, blaming us with a comment like this:

"To “Cycling Tips” – thanks for encouraging vindictive and spiteful behaviour that verges on being criminal."

Will you run your husband off the road too? How does your attitude help? This discussion is trying to encourage sensible, courteous behaviour.

It is also possible that rightly or wrongly (I'm not talking blame here) you did do something that gave him the fright of his life (again, not saying it was deliberate on your part or unlawful)... or he gave himself the fright of his life, felt his safety severely threatened and blamed you. Could be his mistake. However, unless actually mentally ill I do not believe for a second that anyone would behave this way without provocation (or perceived provocation). Mistakes happen. People lose their temper.

Next time a cyclist is run off the road we'll come looking for you shall we?

See? It doesn't help does it?

Seriously, you didn't notice the type or colour of the bike by any chance? I'll keep an eye out.

NB · 2 months ago

AS is a forum troll (someone who posts comments, that may be false or made up, purely to stir a reaction), surely. Why would you write this story here otherwise? Makes about as much sense as writing in to the 'Top Gear' website every time you're a victim of road rage.

AS · 2 months ago

Comments regarding the aformentioned are niether "false or made up" and are not to "stir a reaction". They were meant bring to notice visitors to this site who may be able to to assist Moorabbin and Caulfield Police in their investigations in identifying the vogue cyclist, putting an end to his behaviour, and having him reimburs me for willfully damaging my vehicle.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

To AS - I don't think you actually got the purpose of the debate. CT is trying to engage cyclists in better behaviour towards cars and more sensible riding in general ... Obviously the angry rider you encountered does not read this blog.

I agree that commuters and occasional riders behave dangerously, not being very aware of what the traffic around them is doing... I've seen quite a few of them not even wearing helmets, including senior school kids on their way to classes.
A big ad campain from vicroads and cyclesport victoria would probably be more than useful ....

NB · 2 months ago

Sorry AS, I just thought that writing a comment threatening to 'run cyclists off the road' to a cycling blog, was a wee bit inflammatory and was forum troll-like behaviour. Your entire comment is abusive. You're clearly very angry, but if you've reported it to the police, then you really need to repair the damage and get on with life. That's what insurance is for. If it helps, the other party sounds like he has some serious emotional issues and is probably very miserable. You weren't hurt, so you'll soon forget about the whole thing but he'll still be a loser!

AJS · 2 months ago

It is interesting to note the problematic relationship between cyclist and motorist is not unique to Beach Road, nor indeed Australia. The link below is about a debate being had in Toronto, Canada about cyclists needing to be licensed, registered and insured.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/10/1...

bonesx · 2 months ago

Great Blog, valid posts by all, and on the whole good to get a feeling of common sense prevailing.
RE: "the wave". Whenever a vehicle actually stops on a side-street instead of thinking they can make that gap and pulling out in front of you on the road, i always try to give them a quick wave, or a nod. Most of the time the driver will nod back, or acknowledge you've thanked them for "waiting". (which in fact was them just obeying the road laws - but i digress) I guess i'm hoping my little courtesy makes them stop everytime in the future?
"Anonymous October 8, 2009 at 2:24 pm
I am not too proud to accept tips and suggestions from more experience riders out there. In fact i like it when someone gives me a few pointers on how to improve. Big problem is most (i use that term loosely) A grade riders in Melbourne are too cool to talk to someone in C or D grade. I frequently see new riders on the road doing silly things and not knowing they are doing them because no one has ever told them. Give friendly advice guys and deliver it in a way that beginners / intermediate rides won’t take offence. "
Amen Anonymous. When i first moved to the darkside of road cycling from MTB, an "old salt" passed me a compliment about some aspect or other. 4 years on, and i haven't forgotten it and i try to concentrate on that aspect of my style whenever out. If i see someone struggling, or the opposite, i'll try to encourage them as well.
If we as cyclists, and i mean everyone from the daily rider to the once a year commuter can't get on, how can we expect to bridge this perceived gap with motorists?
BTW WW, your term ‘Cycliquette’ (TM) should be emblazoned on your upcoming Team Kit ;)
cheers

pmark1bike · 2 months ago

I have on an occasion stopped and helped an "A" grade rider with a flat tyre or other problem. They are always happy to talk to you then! I find some of the guys who like to think they are semi pros can act a little aloof when you ride with them. But in saying that, who hasn’t looked down at the guy riding next to him with the ice cream bucket helmet and a pair of runners?

bonesx · 2 months ago

All true pmark1bike, certainly i know i have = human nature i guess. until you realise that same guy/gal in the stack-hat is keeping pace with you, and even though you lift the tempo, you can't shake them. Or heaven forbid they give you a wave and power off into the distance!

For me that's one of the best things about our sport, no matter what the equip/experience level, it's the "engine", or heart doing the driving! It's certainly a great leveller at times, and motivates you to improve, and spread the love, so to speak.

Will T · 2 months ago

Here is why most people don't offer "tips" on the road, let's say for the sake of the argument, an A Grade rider to someone/anyone else:

Because it is a case of once bitten, twice shy. There are so many heroes on Beach Rd now, who think because they can ride with the Tues/Thurs fast NRR from start to finish, that they know all there is to know about cycling and as soon as you try to offer some advice, they swiftly tell you to @#$% mind your own business, whilst they continue to ride in the right-hand lane of beach rd desperately hanging on for dear life to the tail end of NRR giving all cyclists a bad image.

I think you find this is why most guys, no matter what grade they ride, are happy to offer advice when approached, but rarely go looking to help others out unless said advice is requested.

Cycliquette, or whatever you want to call it, is about doing the little things that makes everyones journey on the road safer and happier, and if cyclists themselves are not open to advice/constructive criticism from their own, then how can we expect to improve relations with other road users...

Tim · 2 months ago

** language
(just a courtesy, some have been warned)

peter · 2 months ago

best look yesterday for the around the bay in Melbourne....past the Clocktower beading south on the Col de Beaumaris where the road is 4 lanes wide (2 in each direction). The "bunch" was 8 to 10 riders wide, and spilled over into the oncoming lanes......so much for the keep left and lucky it was early int he morning.
Looking forward to next week where the road is returned to the more sensible "poseur" riders who at least keep their groups tight and allow traffic to pass.

Tim M · 2 months ago

Shows why it is so dangerous. And can't be too good for motorists either (though they have plenty of warning about this event and there're plenty of alternate routes).

Be interesting to see some comments on bunch etiquette.

As the NRR whizzed past 150 Beach Rd this morning, I was left scrambling to get on because I'd taken a minute too long to get the iPhone earbuds in.

On cold muscles into a block headwind trying to catch up to that train was impossible so I spun along and waited for a group to catch me.

There were spinning turns nicely and a gap opened and no one rolled forward so I rolled up to help out and do some work into the wind only to be attacked by what I thought was a squawking magpie, but alas it was a lady most intent on yelling at me for helping.

My bad.

Maybe some tips on how to spot when NOT to help people out in turns.

David · 2 months ago

Tim, your comment is important in that it highlights two things NOT to do with regards to cycling etiquette: 1 - riding with a personal audio device and earbuds; 2 - trying to ride in a group composed of people you don't know.

Ray · 2 months ago

I think that the Round the Bay ride was a terrible advertisement for cyclists. Heaven help any car driver who did show some consideration at a round-about. I saw one car left sitting in the middle of the roundabout. He had right of way, but the stream of cyclists just would not stop entering the roundabout, and he didn't want to run them over.
The list of issues continued for the whole trip.
Aall participants in the round the bay ride, should be instructed in these cycliquette tips, and they should be re-inforced at every rest stop, and at every course indicator arrow, etc.
I think that for many drivers, the event just re-inforced their opinion that cyclists are arrogant and selfish.
I saw my fair share of poorly behaved cars, but far more cyclists were out of line than were car drivers.

JD · 2 months ago

Yeah, the round the bay highlighted (highlit?) to me the key factor that has been mentioned several times. Eloquently articulated etiquette is nice, but "spreading the word" will be the challenge.

I have been on two rides today. 1) The 545NRR, which did involve a dark orange or two, but definitely no deep reds. 2) Ride to work, during which I saw a few etiquette violations, but mainly a stack of flat out law-breaking. Red light runs galore. Curiously, none of the lawbreaking involved any lycra. The outlaws were all wearing trackies, suits, beards, hi-vis gear, panniers, or any combination of the lot.

I threw up my hands in dispair, because there are just too many people who abuse my method of transport, and there is no sensible method of controlling them.

Steve F · 2 months ago

I didnt ride the ATB at the weekend but i witnessed red light runners galore.

Are there any rider guidelines with the packs sent out to riders?

But i have to disagree with JD - a common perception is that lycra clad roadies are less guilty than commuters - i find both are as guilty as eachother when it comes to running reds especially on the early morning rides.

Anonymous · 2 months ago

They are BV crowd, not the CT crowd. Middle aged, flat bar road bike, ATB jersey... the ones I see run red lights the most on my commute.!

pmark1bike · 2 months ago

Possibly a massive generalization!
How old is middle aged?
I am a BV member and perhaps middle aged but I don't run red lights.
;-)

DP · 2 months ago

Let’s take a lesson from motorcyclists.
I’ve been riding with a motor and ‘battling’ for my place on the road for over twenty years.......as a mass, motorcyclists have been around a bit longer than ‘mass’ cyclists.
Ever noticed how they will wave to each other as they pass, how they will talk to each other sitting at the lights (let them sit between your cars or go to the front of the queue as it’s the safest place, a major proportion of accidents are rear enders at lights) whilst this camaraderie would have taken years to evolve it was something that I wanted to be a part of when I got my licence, by comparison ‘mass’ cycling is in its infancy, we clearly need more time to come to terms with each other before anyone else. I can see that trying to take it up as a sport could be intimidating.
Cycling is the new golf, carbon shafts are being replaced in the shed with carbon frames, while every golf club has people at different levels, so too does cycling.
Numbers will continue to grow and for many reasons, people searching for a healthier lifestyle, cheaper transport or for environmental concerns......been to Europe, seen the numbers of cyclists in cities there, it is insane??
To the ‘aloof’ pseudo pro who seemingly hogs the road and looks down – whilst it’s your chosen sport and you have to contend with weekend hacks, you’re just a club golfer and have no greater right to the course than anyone else swinging a club, even though you’re on the equivalent of a single figure handicap.
With regard to all the quips about cycling behaviour, you can bet your life that these are the same people who when driving sit in the outside doing 90 on the freeway, change lanes without looking or indicating, push their way into traffic, inadvertently through no apparent reason or no fault of their own somehow have in sighted someone else......it’s not about the bike, people can be numb to what is going on around them!!
There just isn’t enough courtesy in the world.

ML · 1 month ago

It never ends...

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,2260...

shocked in a good way · 1 month ago

to the TOTAL RUSH rider (name might be dave, might not too. He's got the side burns!) on todays NNR. I take my hat off to you. you are the first rider to take a little control of the NNR and actually keep the pack in check. I heard and saw you all the way home yelling instructions to the working group at the front. Actually i heard you last sunday at the SKCC crits telling A & C grade to ride smarter and be safe on the pack rides in town especially NNR and i thought you were full of shit. today i saw you practicing what you preached. you are a excellent example of what a sports person should be. Keep up the great work

daveTR · 1 month ago

Thanks for the support. I think we all need to take a little bit of responsibility for cleaning up our act, especially when there are more and more cyclists out on the road. We simply can't be out there making a nuisance of ourselves, not to mention the increased risk to everyone when some riders are acting irresponsibly. If we want the respect then we have to respect each other and the motorists too.

Ian Baillie · 1 month ago

Hi, All ,
Well done to Hank for getting 'Cycliquette ' up and going.
And well done to Dave for helping to get the SAFETY RIDING message out there.Keep it up.
Something for you to consider I have recently started a campaign up in Albury using Bright Yellow Bibs with the wording down the back' JUST 1 METRE PLEASE ' with a large Black Arrow pointing to the right.
The Bib has elastic strips at both sides so that it streches over whatever you are wearing even over a small Laptop Backpack.
I realize that this concept will not appeal to all of you but having ridden on the Nepean Highway many years ago I know exactly what it can be like.
If you should be interested in more info please email me.
Stay safe
Cheers Ian

blackslk · 2 weeks ago

Cool - Remembering that one day you will do something Uncool. How will you want others to react?
Cool - Situational awareness - knowing where you are, who you're with and thinking about what might be ahead.
Cool - Calling hazards for those in the group behind you.
Cool - Treating other road users as you would like to be treated.
Cool - Encouraging newbies.
Uncool - Getting hot headed.
Uncool - Giving the bird to a driver and then realising it was your boss.
Uncool - Forgetting that a bike is the best thing ever invented and that it is meant to be FUN.